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Talk: Slain Mary Sues

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Final Deletion[]

All Sue pages marked for deletion can now be deleted. --Guvnor Of Space 05:03, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

Sue Evaluation Coordination[]

Since I think this is where everyone said they want to coordinate from, I'm starting this here. Dividing these Sues up evenly, the four of us would each get 37 Sues to evaluate. As Neshomeh mentioned in the Poll thread, that might involve involve reading the mission the Sue came from, especially if they seem unique, but the article is incomplete. I'd also like to note if a page lacks links, it automatically needs improvement, something I also did not mention in the thread on the board. Guvnor Of Space 20:49, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Division of Sues:

Antigone68104: Aeyrn --> Christina Duke

Eileen alphabet: Cordelia Driscol --> Kanami Kimura

Guvnor of Space: Katherine May Gibbs -->Peony

Lunar Huntress: Pheonix --> Zane

Roger that! - EileenAlphabet 22:20, December 9, 2011 (UTC)
I'll get started - Antigone68104 00:28, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Think I can help? I'm set to help too. I'm also willing to get rid of some of my own pages. Jack the Wolf and Dragona might not be too essential.Aster Corbett 23:48, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

To quote the original poll thread " I suggest that members of this group should not have made Sue pages themselves so as to eliminate personal bias, and also that they should be willing to read the missions in question to make the best evaluation and/or improvement(s)." I like this, but if others disagree, that's fine. However, I don't see anything wrong with you removing pages you made. --Guvnor Of Space 23:54, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Guidelines?[]

Will the folks reviewing the Sue/Stu pages be recommending guidelines for adding future Sue/Stu pages? I'd hate to see it end up that new ones are never added for fear of not meeting a vague 'significant' enough threshold. For instance before this was started, I was planning on talking to Caddy about adding one for Heather based on her significance to the character of Agent Cadmar, and clear guidelines are comforting to me. Miah 79 00:38, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Guideline Proposal:

Uniqueness: If a Sue Stu is particularly unusual, or had a particularly special effect on canon, than they are "unique." For example, a Sue that, say, turns all generic surface into glitter is unique.

Notability: If a Sue or Stu is particularly famous, or from the Original Series, than they are "notable." For example, Laura, of "Legolas by Laura," is a particularly notable Sue.

These are the guidelines I propose. Or rather, this is how I interpret the poll results, and therefore the original directive. The idea, I think, is to cut down on standard Sues. In my opinion, Sues whose significance is mainly to an agent do not necessarily need their own page. Of course, that's my opinion. "Notability" could be interpreted to mean Sues that are of particular importance to particular agents. I think others need to weigh in on this. Guvnor Of Space 00:47, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm ... if an active agent is recruited from a Suefic, I'm leaning toward letting that count toward notability. Trouble is, you'd need to wait a few missions to tell if a recruit is going to work out as an agent before putting the Sue page up.

I'm also leaning toward keeping Sue pages that are excellent examples of how a Sue would work in a specific continuum. For instance, Alanna (Sue) is textbook Pern Sue; we don't (seem to) get a lot of Pern missions, but her page could be useful to someone sending agents into Pern.

I'm willing to be overruled on either of these, though. Antigone68104 16:32, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Opinion on your points: I don't know about either of these. Personally, I'm for removing those pages, on the following basis: For the agents one, I'm of the opinion that an agent page should be the go to source for information on specific agents, even ones recruited from badfic. This also eliminates the problem of knowing whether or not the recruited character 'works out' as an agent.' This ties in to my previously stated belief that Sues who are notable only because of significance to an agent should not have pages. I'm leery of allowing pages for Sues that are significant for agents because that begs the question of what exactly that means. Are they significant because an agent really hated them, or because they injured, or nearly injured an agent, or because, for whatever reason, that Sue did something that impacted the agents personality? Significance to the overall canon (Original Series Sues), famousness (John Freeman and Laura) or just bizarre deviations (A Sue that replaces generic surface with glitter) are easier to see. I'm still curious as to what others think of this- this is my personal opinion, and there are four of us working on these pages. I'd like your opinions. As for 'textbook examples,' I'm of the opinion that the wiki pages on various canons should cover these- the Stargate page is a good example. The Pern page is not. I think that Sue trends should be added to that page, since a 'textbook sue' from any continuum is one of the things I thought we were seeking to eliminate here. Guvnor Of Space 17:08, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Guvnor on this one. As I am going through the pages, I am looking for Sues that are not 'textbook', but who act above and beyond standard Sue behavior. (Exactly what constitutes above and beyond, I am still making my mind up about; so far I'm compiling a list to get an overview. Sorry about being vague.) But the Sues I am so far leaning towards keeping, are the ones who make me think 'Whoa, we don't see that everyday and thank the Maker for that.' EileenAlphabet 21:15, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

Progress?[]

I'm kind of curious about the progress of the others working on this. I've been slowed down by finals week, but I should get around to finishing my Sues this weekend. How are you guys doing? Guvnor Of Space 12:02, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

Just finished my initial pass. At the moment, I'm voting for the deletion of 20/37 pages I have for review. (Six were Original Series Sues, so the real number is more like 20/31.) That probably won't change.Guvnor Of Space 19:42, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

I hope I can the rest done this weekend as well. I think I'm recommending deletion for about half of them (not counting TOS Sues). I've made some notes explaining my decision in each case. EileenAlphabet 22:22, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Sue Page Results[]

Add your Sues to this section in alphabetical order, with your name at the top of the section you had, as I'm going to. Each CFD (Candidate for Deletion, figured I'd post that for those who aren't familiar with this project) should eventually be reviewed by two people, so if you're finished and want to start going over someone else's Sues, that'd be great. Once we have the whole list reviewed and finished, I think we should post it on the board. If anyone who did not write it thinks a Sue page should not be deleted, I think we should review their reasoning, and as a group decide if we agree or disagree with them. Guvnor Of Space 20:02, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Update: If two of us disagree on what do do with a Sue, I'm of the opinion that the third person should cast the tiebreaking vote. However, if two of us agree on what to do with a particular Sue page, I don't see any reason the third one of us needs to look it over. Guvnor Of Space 15:53, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Also, if you have dead IndeeMaat Links, it turns out she has a Livejournal with almost everything on it here.

Sues reviewed by Antigone68104 17:34, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Aeryn. If disposing of her hadn't set off the Assimilation Crisis, I'd vote to delete. As is, I think the page needs to be kept. (It also needs a rewrite.)

  • Hrm. Indeed. I agree on the re-write thing. I'm more on the fence as far as keeping her though, but on the keep side. I agree Emergency Sues are likely notable. Perhaps they should get their own category? Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Aislinn. Original Series, keep.

Akaia. Nothing really special about the mission, and the page is just a stub. My vote: delete.

Akasha. Original Series, keep.

Alanna (Sue). Well-written page, but probably not unique enough to keep. My vote: delete.

  • See my response to your suggestion on Nadia. So technically, concur. Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Alex (A-Team Sue). The mission link on the page is dead. I tracked down another link, and more of the mission is about agent conflict than about dealing with the Sue. My vote: delete.

  • Yeah. I concur with the move to delete. Luckily, the IndeMaat Master List has this one... Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Alex (Tolkienverse Sue). Original Series, keep.

Alexander Bewes. Annoying crossover-Stu, but I don't think that's enough to keep him around. My vote: delete.

Alexis. Original Series, keep.

Alumia. The Sue who possessed Arda. My vote: keep and rewrite.

  • Yeah, I know some people who specifically use her as an example of what a notable Sue is, and yeah, the page could do with a re-write. Concur. Guvnor Of Space 13:33, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Amy MacGyver. Fairly average mission. My vote: delete.

Andelko T'Gonda. Secondary Stu from the Alexander Bewes mission. My vote: delete. If we vote to keep the Bewes page, add Andelko to it.

  • I'm not here to make a vote in the defense of a Stu-page I made, but I do feel as if I need to clear something up that may have been misunderstood during the initial review. Andelko T'Gonda is the main Stu of the Alexander Bewes/Andelko T'Gonda/Carina T'Gonda mission, not Alexander Bewes. Alexander Bewes doesn't appear until the second chapter of that story, and it's made pretty clear that Alexander is supposed to play second fiddle to Andelko in-fic. On top of that, Andelko is the one who's supposed to have the destiny in the fic, and he's the one who gets the speshul birthmark at the beginning. So if we vote to keep the Andelko page, then my advice would be to add Alexander and Carina to it, rather than adding Andelko and Carina to Alexander's page. Herr Wozzeck 20:40, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
    • All that aside, this is actually the only mission I've yours I've managed to get most of the way through. I can say that I think all three are CFDs. The only really notable thing from that mission was the time hopping kidnapping shenanigans. So... Concur Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Andrantiel. Minor Sue, nothing really special. My vote: delete. (Her name is misspelled on the page; if the final vote is to keep her, those should be fixed.)

Andromielle Zinnia. Original Series, keep.

Anirana. Original Series, keep.

Anna-Belle Dialer. Creative death, but that's probably not enough. My vote: delete.

  • Yeah. Creative deaths are the responsibilities of the agents, and on top of that already have their own page. So I concur. Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Annie. The only thing in her favor for retention is the whole "give a religious lecture to the Golden Goddesses and not get zapped". I don't know Zelda well enough to know just how bad that is. My vote: delete, but I'm willing to be overruled by Zelda fans.

  • Hrm... Unless EA is a Zelda fan and can help on this, I'll agree with your CFD. Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Archir the Emerald. First appearance of a ficubus. My vote: keep.

  • Indeed. Unique Sue Phenomena are notable in my book. Concur. Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Ariuella Shadowfox. Original Series, keep.

Aster Griffith. Average Sue. My vote: delete.

  • Do you know how many times I accidentally ended up on this page when searching for Agent Aster? A lot. I concur... Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Aveline Vagan. First appearance of an "Impetus Miserabilis" Sue-wraith. My vote: keep.

Azelynn. Average Sue. My vote: delete.

Balrog Sue. Was she from a real badfic? The link is to a story from the old board, I can't tell if she was made up for purposes of the story or not. My vote: delete.

  • Huh... I think we need clarification on this. I'm gonna wait for that before I vote. Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
    • Clarification: I'm pretty sure this was a real Sue. It's a pretty famous one in any case (at least, it was back in the day), so I for one would be sad to see this page go. She has a name, though, so renaming the page "Harrow" would be in keeping with the general way of things. (Also, I could have sworn I copied the mission to the Lost Tales archive, but apparently I haven't yet. I will be getting on that at some point soon. >.>; ) ~Neshomeh 19:16, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • Since she's real, I would like to vote that we keep the page. --EileenAlphabet 20:52, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • Since she's real, I'll change my vote to keep. I agree that the page should be renamed to "Harrow". --Antigone68104 16:49, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Becky (A-Team). Average Sue. My vote: delete.

Bob (Stu). There's nothing unique here unless his sandwich-form counts. My vote: delete.

  • Personally, I think the fact he is a sandwich is quite unique. I vote to keep. Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • Consensus on T.C.'s discussion is that unusual forms count for our purposes, so I'll change my vote to keep. --Antigone68104 17:54, January 19, 2012 (UTC)
  • Also Concur with keeping. EileenAlphabet 08:59, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Branwyn Luck. Original Series, keep.

Brooke Monica Gibbs DiNozzo. Average Sue. My vote: delete.

Bunny. Average Sue. My vote: delete.

Caden O'Connor. I can't find a mission link, but the description sounds very average. My vote: delete.

Calca Avis. Generic instant-Twu Luv. My vote: delete.

Candace Van Allen. Original Series, keep.

Candice Speedle. Fairly standard Gibbs' daughter Sue. The mission itself is interesting because the agents kept bouncing between two badfics with the same titles, but that's not enough to keep the Sue page. My vote: delete.

  • Hmm. I think that might qualify as a unique Sue phenomena, unless you feel it was more a product of the badfic? I'm going to vote to keep it, but partially just so that EA has to weigh in on this. Guvnor Of Space 13:33, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • Like I noted on the other Sue, I think the phenomenon deserves a page, but the Sues does not. After all, the whole point is that they are so generic, that they can't be told apart. So, delete. EileenAlphabet 08:59, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Carina T'Gonda. Secondary Sue from the Alexander Bewes mission. My vote: delete. As with Andelko, if the Bewes page is kept, add Carina to it instead of keeping a separate page.

  • I vote to delete all three, as stated above. Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Cassandra Thompson. Your basic steal-a-canon's-part Sue. My vote: delete.

Celebrian (badfic). Legendary Badfic, keep.

  • There is no such page. There is no such page. There is no such page... I concur with keeping this page, which definitely does not exist. Guvnor Of Space 13:33, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Charlie (Stu). Original Series, keep.

Christina Duke. Average Sue. My vote: delete.

Sues reviewed by EileenAlphabet 11:45, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Cordelia Driscol. While she is a very annoying Sue, I don't see her as being specially unique or having a special impact. Claiming to be Snape's niece, learning everything ridiciously fast and being a druid priestess are all expressions of wellknown Suetraits. Her atheme is actually more unique than she is. Verdict: Delete.

Damien. TOS Sue. The isn't much info about her, so I don't think the article can be expanded.

Dawn (Sue). Lusts after a Wraith and makes changes to the biology and psychology of the species, but nothing totally out of the ordinary. Verdict: Delete.

  • I'm more on the fence here, but am on board with deletion. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Deez. I don't see a lot of villain!Sues and as much as it squicks me out, I must admit that female on male sexual abuse is also rare. And she makes the hostile room. Verdict: Page should be expanded, but can be kept.

  • Concur with keeping and expanding --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Deminica. TOS Sue; also, her fic was the infamous code 18, which would make it worth preserving, even if she wasn't TOS.

Destini Star. Since she is the only Sue I have heard of, who actually commits suicide upon seeing her own end, I think that makes her notable. Also, she is a bubble wearing plush dinosaurs as underwear. Verdict: Needs to be expanded, but can be kept.

  • Hrm... I dunno. The suicide is more a result of what the agents do than the Sue herself. I vote that this be a CFD. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • To me, it's more that Destini was driven to suicide by the agents. If this isn't on the notable assassination methods page, it should be ... but for this page, I think she can be deleted. --Antigone68104 00:57, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Dragona. I can't see that she is or does anyhting really over-the-top, except for claiming to be a canon character's mother. She isn't given a lot of screen time in the mission either. Verdict: Delete.

Dyzl ro'Jinte. Can't even find the mission. And the description doesn't seem to point to him doing anything. Verdict: Delete.

  • Concur. I'd love to actually find a link, but if we can't this does look like a CFD. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • The Myst page claims he's in "Return to Riven", but in-mission the Stu is a possessed Stranger (named Daniel). The agent links connect to the MREDURE OFU, but I'm not seeing Dyzl mentioned there either. Three votes to delete. --Antigone68104 16:49, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Elena Russo. Making everyone around her stupid to make herself seem smarter? Typical Sue-behavior. Making even an agent unprofessional (Tasmin hits the OC)? That's over-the-top. Verdict: Keep, but should include the part about her making even agents unprofessional.

  • Eh, this Sue seems more important to the agents then as a Sue herself. I vote that this one be deleted. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • Vote to delete. --Antigone68104 20:58, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Elessario. Being a Harry Potter Sue who drags in two other canons simply to give herself an overblow pedigree is impressive in a twisted way. Verdict: Keep.

Elizabeth Bennet (Narnia Sue) (How dare she use that name!). Seems pretty standard. She makes a complete mess of the timeline, but most likely because she has only read the first book or seen the first movie and have no idea what happens next, rather than because of any deliberate effort. Verdict: Delete.

Elvira Flameheart Magiseer. TOS Sue.

Emily (Young Wizards Sue). A scheming little player as she might be, she doesn't stike me as that unusual. Verdict: Delete.

Emily Smith. Can't find the mission on this one either, but from the description, she doesn't seem unique. Verdict: Delete. UPDATE: Still delete.

Emma Silverblade. TOS Sue.

Erik Servint. Pretty standard Stu. Verdict: Delete.

Evelyn Eliza. Sleeps with both Elladan and Legolas and have them fight over her and then forgive her. Also this Sue was created by someone who had actually read the books. I say she qualifies. Verdict: Keep.

  • While it's surprising for a Suethor to know who Elladan is, I don't see much special about this one. I move to make her a CFD. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • Vote to delete. Knowing about Elrond's sons isn't unusual enough to keep, and the rest of this is standard. --Antigone68104 16:49, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Felicity Brown. Pretty standard Sue behaviour. Verdict: Delete.

Forlay (Sue). The fic is unusual, but the main Sue is Gem Stoned and there's a page on her. Verdict: Delete, keep the other one.

Fraya Montag. Has supernatural flameproof skin in a world where that doesn't exist, but other than that, she doesn't do much. Verdict: Delete.

Gem Stoned. I have never seen a blatant-self-insert/godplayer Sue who makes the characters fans of her fanfics, so IMO that makes her special. Verdict: Keep.

  • Concur, although more borderline for me. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Gemini Stone. TOS Sue.

Gwendolyn Elizabeth Huntington. TOS Sue.

Hanae. TOS Sue.

Heather Draconius. Annoying overachiver!Sue with many of the standard Potterverse-Sue trait. Verdict: Delete.

Honesah Hoononee Keemo. She's a humanoid Pegacorn with blue and gold striped hair. And Legolas still falls in love with her. This is so insanely bad (or badly insane) that she is used as an example on the Mary Sue page. Verdict: Keep.

  • While I don't think that being used as an example on the Mary Sue page should be a reason for keeping a Sue, this one is particularly bad, and I concur with your opinion on keeping it. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Ice (A-Team)|Icy. Standard military overachiver feminist!Sue. Verdict: Delete.

Isabella Pierce. Moving Middle-earth to another galaxy, saving two canons from their canonical deaths (which possibly would mean that she should be two places at ones) and making Elrond fail at simple maths strikes me as remarkable. Verdict: Keep.

  • Since Lord of the Rings is supposed to take place on Earth (I think), that just makes this even worse. Concur --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • I think you're right. It's not as obvious as in the Conan stories, but the parallels are too close for coincidence. Antigone68104 23:50, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Jack the Wolf. I'm a bit on the fence on this one. He doesn't do anything I can call unique, since most of it has been done many times over by various Sues and Stus, but he does so many things. The whole thing is a mess of canon breaches and Stu traits being piled on top of each other. Verdict: Keep, unless others think it should go.

  • I'm sorta on the fence here, too, but I'm on the deletion side of the fence. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • Leaning toward deletion myself, overachiever Stus aren't unusual. --Antigone68104 16:49, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Jackson Earl Simon. Sadly, squickfic in canons meant for children are not that rare. This guys only real claim to fame seems to be that he has incredible boring descriptions of incredibly gory scenes. Verdict: Delete.

Jaycacia Thornbyrd. Oh, how I love those stories! She's a classic. Verdict: Keep!

Jayson. Mission has apparently been moved to a google document. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=19EprDuFxOQWljGI_mTMjeoZzi9EQI9UmTVKxIZuq1Sc Messes up the Discworld canon pretty badly and is a blatant Stu, but nothing really out of the ordinary. Verdict: Delete.

Jessica Luke. Punctuation is nonexistent and the Sue had clearly begun posting her story before she had thought the plot all the way through, but other than that, she is pretty standard. Verdict: Delete.

John Freeman. The Livejournal with the missions seem to have been deleted. However this Stu apparently stared in a number of fics and the author has some notoriety. Verdict: Keep, unless others think it should go.

  • I feel we should keep famous Sues/Stus, and John Freeman is certainly famous. Also, the missions were there earlier this year (I read them) so searching for them on the Wayback Machine or somewhere else might be a good idea. I concur with your decision to keep. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Kana (Gary Stu). Stupid and speshul. Nothing I can see that makes him stand out. Verdict: Delete.

Kana Horrendous the Third. This Sue has one of the worst cases of as-syndrome (where everything happens at the same time) I have ever seen. She transforms onto a dragon by shedding her damn skin. And the fic contains some sort of urple magic that turns the kender agent into an anime-character. Verdict: Keep.

  • Hrm. I'm on the fence here, but on the keep side. I'll concur, but I think someone else should take a look at this one, too. --Guvnor Of Space 05:44, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • I'll vote to keep this as well. Antigone68104 00:09, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Kanami Kimura. Another overachiever!Sue who confuses bitchy with badass. Verdict: Delete.

The Sues originally reviewed by Guvnor of Space. All Sues marked CFD, in his opinion, are not unique or notable enough to have their own page.

Katherine May Gibbs- CFD

  • Concur. Although I find the phenomenon of having Sues, that are so unoriginal that the missions blend into each other, to be worthy of a page of its own. I believe this happened with a pair of PotC Sues as well. I'll see what I can dig up. Maybe even get around to making the page. EileenAlphabet 11:12, December 24, 2011 (UTC)
    • The PotC Sues in question belong to my very first mission, The Most Beautiful Women, in which the Sue that Jack thinks is the most beautiful girl in the world fights the most beautiful woman that Jack has ever seen. The former didn't have a name in her very short story (the agents nicknamed her Helen of Troy), but the latter was rather...interestingly...named Fatima a.k.a. "Pheonix" a.k.a. Sarah. To my knowledge, it was the first time a pair of Sues caused two missions to blend into each other like that. Araeph 14:43, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
    • Thank you, Araeph. I'll go ask on the board if anyone knows of any other blending Sues. EileenAlphabet 16:42, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
  • Not a bad idea. But yeah, the Sue herself is pretty bland.

Kay-Cee Carter- CFD

Kayla Shepard- Probably Notable do to glitterizing surfaces. No re-writing needed

Kayla "Kay" Troy- CFD

Kelly (MacGyver)- No links on page. Link is here. CFD

Kirox, Lykas, and Lunavier- CFD

Kithra (Sue)- Article needs links/rewrite if notable. Links to part one here CFD

Kivan Silverblade- Original series Sue. No re-writing needed

Ky-Wynn Ekiee Bethia Agosto Kai-Isteea-Calldwell-Bell-Renno-Angelo- CFD, if not deleted re-writing and links needed

  • She's a candidate for most speshul Sue name ever, but I concur with the CFD. EileenAlphabet 11:58, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Laura- The famous Laura of Legolas by laura. I vote we keep this one for that reason. If the famousness of the fic does not count for notability, than this is a CFD, but I think it should. Does not need a re-write

  • Agreed -- Sues from Legendary Badfic should count as notable. Antigone68104 17:49, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • Also agree. EileenAlphabet 11:58, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Laurel- Original series Sue. No re-writing needed

Leah- CFD

Leslie Kendall - Article in need of rewrite, link here , CFD

Link- Original Series Sue. No re-writing needed

Lossenlindëiel- I don’t know what to do with this one. The article needs to be re-written if we are keeping it. This Sue is extremely vanilla, but seems to be important in events in Tawaki’s spinoff? I’m going to call it a CFD, but if anyone else feels differntly, speak up.

  • Concuring with the CFD. The Key to Canon page links to the mission rather than this page, so I don't think the Sue page is essential. EileenAlphabet 11:58, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Lucy-Elissa -Romances an eldritch abomination and an old man, not to mention she’s supposedly old and becomes young in Dragon Age World. I vote we keep it. Article has a few typos that could use fixing

  • Concur. A World One insert that posesses a canon character aren't excactly common. EileenAlphabet 11:58, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Mackenzie Skyler Harkness McPhee- CFD. Link is here

Maddie and Terrah- These two are very odd, and do strange things. I vote we keep them. Article does not need re-writing

  • I'm a bit on the fence, but I'll concur. --EileenAlphabet 17:02, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Maeluiwen- I... don’t get this. Does this really belong in the slain Sues category?

  • I'd vote to move her to a more appropriate category, if I could figure out what that category would be. Antigone68104 17:49, December 21, 2011 (UTC)
  • Seconding that move. When we bring up this part of the Sues on the board, we can ask for suggestions as to where. --EileenAlphabet 17:02, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Marrissa Amber Flores Picard- Not seeing anything particularly special about this one, besides the sheer amount of stuff apperently written about her. CFD

  • Never mind. She's on the Legendary Badfic page. I somehow missed this the first time I looked on there. Also, no link to the actual mission in the article. That should be corrected. (This is the link ) Guvnor Of Space 01:58, December 18, 2011 (UTC)
  • Concur --EileenAlphabet 17:02, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Matrix- Original Series Sue. Might want to expand this page a bit

Matt Krueger- CFD

Megan Dumbledore- Link is [1]. Is a CFD

Megan Shepard-Gibbs -She’s the target of multiple assassination attempts and has fourteen body guards. That’s so Sueish, unique and stupid all at the same time.

  • I'm on the delete side with this one. The Sue has no idea how things (FBI, taxes, etc.) work in the real world, but I don't see her as that unusual. I would like a third opinion. --EileenAlphabet 17:02, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • The Sue's a teenager, so a certain amount of not knowing how things work is acceptable. (The canons should have known better, but that's Aura of Smooth for you.) I'm leaning toward keeping her; she's at a US Secret Service level of protection, and that seems unusually special to me.

Miley (Doctor Who)- Article needs re-write if notalbe, but I think it's a CFD Link is here

Mithril Starlight- Original Series Sue. Article could maybe go more in depth, but looks pretty good.

Morgain- No links, little is written here. I can’t even figure out which Agent sporked her. (No results found for an “Agent Glass.”) I vote for deletion if someone can’t give me more info. Heck, even if they can, this looks like a CFD anyway. EDIT: Yup, this is a CFD in my opinion.

Morgan Jacobs- I’m on the fence here. On the one hand, this is the only shared Sue I’ve ever seen. On the other hand, she has nothing going for her beyond that. Plus, no links, and I can't even find any on IndeeMaat's main mission page.

  • I vote CFD. I've come across at least one other Sue who was 'adopted' by another author so they might be more common than we think. Anyway, I think it would make more sense to have a page for 'The Shared Sue Phenomenon' rather than keeping this one. --EileenAlphabet 17:02, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Mothiel-CFD

  • She took an arrow to the knee! Now that is funny! And I concur. --EileenAlphabet 17:02, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Nadia- Hmm. I’m borderline here, too, because this Sue seems so utterly a normal Sue, yet is a Harry Potter/Pern crossover Sue, which in and of itself is odd, not to mention she pulls out all the stops to let us know she’s a Sue. I’m going to vote this as a keeper, but I wouldn’t be surprised if one of you disagrees with me. If so, I'll change my vote here to a CFD. In any case, it’s a very well written article, so no re-write needed.

  • I'm going to say CFD, but, again, let's get a third vote in. --EileenAlphabet 17:02, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • Suggestion -- we cut the three related pages (Alanna, Nadia, and Roma), but use them as a basis for a "Pern in Badfic" section on the Dragonriders of Pern page. The page doesn't have that section currently, and these three would certainly give us a good start. Antigone68104 23:50, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
    • I heartily second that suggestion, actually. Looking at this page again, I'm going to say that I was wrong, and that it probably is a CFD. I love the suggestion on adding this stuff to the Pern page, since other pages do cover this sort of thing, as they should. Unfortunately, I have no familiarity with the 'verse. So I'm not up for that job. --Guvnor Of Space 10:35, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
      • I'll step up for that. I made the Pern page in the first place, and I agree, it ought to have an "In Badfic" section. I've been working on Continua pages anyway. {= ) ~Neshomeh 19:16, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Narnia "Nia" Evenshire- CFD

Norman Jaden- CFD

  • I'll vote to keep this one. He claims to be three different persons who can in no way be each other, survives being hit by a car and stuck to the grill for hours, gets a job at the FBI at the age of ten and ages 19 years in two years. I short, he has the dumbest backstory, I have ever seen. So, we need a third vote. EileenAlphabet 10:22, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't know the canon, but I think he's enough overblown to keep. --Antigone68104 20:58, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

OOP-937- Ugh. This is definitely worth keeping, but this article is in crazy need of a re-write.

  • Concur, also with the rewrite. EileenAlphabet 10:22, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Pangaea- Original Series Sue. No need for a re-write

Parker DiNozzo- I think this is one of the youngest Sues I’ve ever seen. Should be kept, but the article badly needs a re-write

  • Agreed. This mission was a double-Sue, and I've got her mom (Brooke Monica Gibbs DiNozzo) on the delete list -- I would suggest that whoever rewrites Parker roll Brooke into the page as well. --Antigone68104 14:55, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • Concur, also with the rewrite. EileenAlphabet 19:51, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Penny Smith- CFD

Peony (Narnia Sue)- CFD

More Sues reviewed by --Antigone68104 19:15, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Phoenix (Sue): Original Series, keep.

Poke-Mon: Barely qualifies as a Stu IMO -- the only thing he does in the mission is be the boyfriend of a canon character. My vote: delete.

Princess Rikai: Sues genderbending the canons is a dime a dozen. Genderbending every single PPC agent who ventures into the fic, including Makes-Things and Doc Fitzgerald? I think this one's worth keeping.

  • Talk about unique effects on things. Concur. Guvnor Of Space 06:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Rheim son of Sirrus: The mission is just the kill -- this was part of a writing challenge with a tight word count limit. My vote: delete, unless the original author wants to rewrite this into a full mission.

  • Herm. I'm not going to vote here, and would like EA to take a look at this one, too. I'm more on the fence here than on any other Sue. Guvnor Of Space 06:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • Darn, this is hard to form an opinion on, when there is so little mission to go by. I don't really know the canon, so the traits seem pretty standard to me (related to canon characters, speshul, etc.). He seems to have been sporked by his own author, which is rare, but not unheard of. There seems to be hint in the Stu-page of more fics and perhaps even more missions, which could make him more notable, if proper references can be dug up. But if they can't I think I'll vote delete. EileenAlphabet 21:18, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Rinj: The mission is listed as one of the worst examples of Anachronistic Cultural Contamination. I don't know if that's enough to keep the Sue page around, though. My vote: delete, but I'm willing to be overruled.

  • I agree with you. See my opinions on one of the other Sues above. (The name of which escapes me at the moment.) I vote to delete. Guvnor Of Space 06:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Robecca: Dealing with her involved a PPC Emergency. My vote: keep.

  • My feelings on emergencies aside, I think she's important. So... concur. Guvnor Of Space 06:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Robyn Austin: Very minor Sue, and she's not dead (she got a warning toss-off-building instead). My vote: delete.

  • The fact she's not dead should be enough to keep her out of this category, considering it's supposed to be for slain, ie dead, Sues. Concur. Guvnor Of Space 06:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Roma Lupin: Secondary Sue. My vote: she doesn't need a page to herself. But, if we're keeping the Nadia page, we could roll Roma and Alanna into it.

  • Yeah. This all depends on Nadia. I concur with you on that, and on what to do with Roma if we keep Nadia. (Big if there, since I'm on the fence about her...)Guvnor Of Space 06:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Rosebay Willowherb: Link on the page is dead (a purged LJ), but I found an alternate. If we're keeping her, we need to update the link ... but she reads like an average Sue, reforming everyone with the Power of Sex. My vote: delete.

  • For the sake of completeness, I'd like it if you posted the link here. Also, yeah, she seems pretty darn average from the page. I'll concur, but won't call it official until I can at least skim relevant parts of the mission, considering how bad this page is. Guvnor Of Space 06:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • Working link: https:///manxandshadow.webs.com/missionthree.htm --Antigone68104 14:55, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Ruby Summers: Average Sue. My vote: delete.

Sairalindë: The page is a stub. This might be worth keeping, as the source for the Ring of Sairalindë, but it will need a rewrite.

  • Indeed. I vote we keep this (because the Ring is a notable artifact that this Sue generated,) but only if someone is willing to re-write it. If not, well, I don't know if she's important enough to keep. Guvnor Of Space 06:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Sakhmet Black: Sue is an avatar of the Egyptian goddess Sekhmet, and getting rid of her involved calling in that goddess. My vote: I'm leaning toward keeping this one.

  • I concur on keeping this one. Sues who are avatars of Epyptian goddesses are not common, to say the least. Guvnor Of Space 06:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

More Sues reviewed by --EileenAlphabet 18:09, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Sarah (CCS Sue) The Sue and her Stu accomplish uses canon as background for their romance. It's uncommon but not unheard of. Verdict: Delete

  • I added the page back then because I thought all slain Sues had to be catalogated. You can delete it with no remorse. Sergio Turbo 14:20, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

Sarah Janeway The Sue herself is very standard, except for being four years old, which might make her the youngest human Sue ever. On the other hand, it seems less a result of delibiration and more like she simply picked a random number under 15. Verdict: Delete.

Sean Brock Hm, for a Stu he seems almost well-written to the point where Allison admits that she sorta liked his story. And the calm, rational debate in the end doesn't look like anything I've ever seen before. Verdict: I'm on the delete side of the fence, but on the fence nonetheless. If the page is keept it should be expanded to include the above points.

  • I'm leaning toward deletion myself, though the Stu trying to justify his story was interesting. --Antigone68104 20:58, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
    • Gah. This is a tough one. However, I think delete is the right option here. So I'll concur with the leaning towards deletion. --128.205.139.111 18:08, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Serenity (Sue) TOS Sue. Also, the daugther of Remus Lupin and Galadriel?? Page is short but to the point. Verdict: Keep

Shane Miller Compainion Stu to Matt Krueger. Verdict: Delete.

Shitty-Ping That's a canon we don't see everyday, but the Stu doesn't seem to be anything special. Verdict: Delete.

Silavren TOS series. And the page looks okay. Verdict: Keep.

Sofia Pinedale Link is here http://indemaat.livejournal.com/10324.html and here http://indemaat.livejournal.com/10633.html#cutid1 (long mission). The badness just keeps comming and she fails at basic maths. Still, not really unique. Verdict: Delete.

Solaris The Sue who breastfed the Fellowship. She's also a TOS Sue. Page does not need more details. Verdict: Keep

Special Agent Melanie Carlton (Sue) Can't find a link so far. Will dig around some more and try to get back to her. Seems pretty standard, though. Verdict: Probably a delete.

Spidey3000 Total overachiver!Stu who drags in random bits of other canons simply to make himself seem cooler. And he gets killed by his own author, who regretted him. Verdict: Keep

Springfield (Mary Sue) Apparently she had neither read the book, nor seen the movie, which has to be a new low for LOTR. Also, to quote straight from the mission: "Somebody has essentially erased Arda and replaced it with their own approximation, which is mixed with Wizard of Oz and Harry Potter concepts. Pirates of the Caribbean is involved as well." If that is not notable, I don't know what is. Vedict: Keep, but the page should be expanded.

  • Agreed --Antigone68104 20:58, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
    • I swear this is one if the other ones people use as an example of a page that should be kept. Not that it's in question of being deleted, just thought I'd throw that out there. --128.205.139.111 18:08, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

More Sue Pages Reviewed by Guvnor of Space

Sue!Arwen: Original Series Sue, keep

Suichi Sanders: “The mission has not yet been released.” And nothing has been done with this page in over a year. Yeah, I think this needs to be deleted.

Sunlight Moonbeam Starsong Gale: This appears to be a made up Sue? I’m highly confused here. The agents associated with her have almost nothing written about them which does not help things at all. I vote to delete.

Susan (A-Team): CFD. Possibly the most pointless “I want to have the sex with hot character” Sue I’ve ever seen, but definitely a CFD.

  • At least she sticks to the PWPness. But yeah, concur. EileenAlphabet 10:22, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

T.C.: Possibly the only Chef Sue ever, but pretty normal otherwise. CFD

  • I'll be going back to keeping my mouth shut after this, but isn't the fact that she's literally a green shirt unique in the same way as Bob the Sandwich? ~Neshomeh 19:16, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • Yes it does... I tend to write a preliminary opinion based on the page, look over the mission and then post my final opinion. This is where I took my break with this last set of Sues, and I must have forgotten to check over this Suemission before I posted this. And I was wondering why she was a floating shirt. (I missed that sentence, too.) I'll change my vote to keep, and look over the rest of these to make sure there aren't more issues. Sorry about that! Guvnor Of Space 22:55, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • Concur to keep. EileenAlphabet 11:17, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Tala Wolcott (Sue): CFD

Terri Baltimore: Original series, but maybe not a keeper. The article is really freaking short and I’d like to know if anyone else agrees with me and thinks it should be expanded. The problem with just saying that it should be is that Tala is a secondary Sue to Gemini Stone, and maybe her stuff should just be added to Gemini’s article? This is probably the only time I’m going to recommend removing an Original Series Article.

  • I think it is a good idea to mege this with Gemini's article. EileenAlphabet 11:17, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

The Sisterhood: Original Series, keep

Thunder 2: Hrm. Utterly bizarre crossover, but otherwise seems to be a normal overachiever Stu. CFD, unless others think the strangeness of the crossover is notable. Also, for the record, this might be my favorite Sue name on this list.

  • No, wait a minute. This Stu has real F-22 jets shot down in combat training, which stikes me as just as notable as having US secret service level of protection. So if we keep Megan Sheprad-Gibbs, I think we should keep this one as well. EileenAlphabet 15:05, January 19, 2012 (UTC)
  • Another vote to keep -- our Stu is a trainee who not only gets a top of the line fighter jet for flight training, but a customized jet? --Antigone68104 17:54, January 19, 2012 (UTC)
    • I'd like to clarify that I view a trainees getting too much stuff and demonstrating crazy skills in training as pretty normal for military based canons. But if you both feel it's notable, that's fine. --128.205.139.111 18:08, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Toulouse: CFD, though if we keep it, the article is in serious need of a re-write. I'd like to clarify that I don't think a Stu being an animal is reason enough for them to be "unique," as stated above with Jack the Wolf. I'd also like to note I suspect the name was stolen from the movie "The Aristocats."

  • Concur with the deletion. EileenAlphabet 15:05, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Twila Topaz Cullen: I’m pretty sure this is a famous Sue, although I don’t see her fic on the legendary badfic page (although I've missed such things before.) So keep.

  • If troll posing as Sues belong here, I agree that we keep the page. EileenAlphabet 15:05, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Villa: CFD

Zain: CFD

  • Longest run-on sentence ever, but yeah, I concur. EileenAlphabet 15:05, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Adding Sue Pages During the Evaluation?[]

I had a question I wanted to ask about Sue and Stu pages, and I wanted to ask in case I write a Stu page in the near future while you're going about with the re-organization of the entire category. Keep in mind that I entirely doubt that the mission that the Stu I'm thinking of writing a page for will be finished before you guys are done checking that, but this might be helpful for other people who want to ask the same question.

If we write up a Sue and Stu page and want to post it at any time during the evaluation, will we have to hand it to one of the four evaluators to make sure it's notable enough?Herr Wozzeck 02:07, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

  • Good question. I don't have a definite answer for you. I'm leaning towards no adding of new pages until the evaluation is over, though. As for "the four reviewers," well, Lunar Huntress has yet to post anything here and I may be looking to replace her. Guvnor Of Space 02:37, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Who's doing this?[]

I haven't seen anything posted here by Lunar Huntress, and Antigone has not posted in a while. I move that if we don't here something from them soon, we find replacements. At the very least, getting more people in on this wouldn't hurt. Guvnor Of Space 05:16, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

I could delete some of the pages already slated for deletion.WikiM 16:03, December 22, 2011 (UTC)

WikiM: We aren't planning on deletion until after the community reviews our results, at which point an Admin will do it. To Eileen and Antigone: Since Lunar Huntress still hasn't responded, I vote we split the Sues that she was "assigned." Antigone would get the first tweleve, EA would get the second twelve, and I'd take the last thirteen. Sound good? Guvnor Of Space 15:53, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

  • I've got mine up. I've also now given a second opinion on over half of all of the Sues on this page. I think I'm gonna let Antigone get EA's last twelve when she gets them up. :p Guvnor Of Space 13:34, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm on board with this. Will try to catch up as soon as I am able to. EileenAlphabet 15:43, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
  • I've got my share up. --Antigone68104 19:23, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Formatting on this page[]

The formatting on this page is getting nightmareish. Every time I make an edit, I have to delete extra the extra '*' which it adds, and now no matter what I do I can't get Antigone or my list to display properly. I've never had this much trouble getting a wiki page to work before. I'm three inches from giving up on coordinating here and mocing this to a Google Doc, which would be much simpler to edit. Guvnor Of Space 16:06, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. I can't stand broken formatting. {= P Guv, I don't know what you're doing, but your posts contained a lot of random HTML code. Are you using the Rich Text editor? ~Neshomeh 18:00, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
  • I was. Not so much anymore. Thanks so very very much for fixing this page! --Guvnor Of Space 15:24, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
You're welcome! I think you won't miss the Visual/RTE mode much. ~Neshomeh 19:16, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks from me also! --EileenAlphabet 20:52, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Fixed some more. Where do those weird {C characters keep coming from? I've seen them pop up elsewhere, too, and I can't see what use they're supposed to have. ~Neshomeh 19:13, December 31, 2011 (UTC)
Fixed AGAIN. Now stop breaking it. {= P ~Neshomeh 21:47, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Name Change?[]

Now that this is only going to include 'important' Sues, I feel maybe we should propose a name change on the board, to something like "Notable Slain Sues." Guvnor Of Space 13:24, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

  • On that note, actually, it might be worth rethinking how the subcategories of the Slain Mary Sues category work. According to the list you've complied above, something like almost half of the subcategories would suddenly have absolutely nothing on them (A-Team, The Legend of Zelda (pending the decision on Annie), Torchwood, MacGyver, Pern, Redwall, Shakespeare). And even then, all the remaining pages (with the exceptions of the TOS Sues and Tolkienverse Sues categories) would have less than eight Sues on them, which I don't think justifies then keeping them as categories if we're going to have so few pages on each subcategory. (Not like it stopped most of the Slain Mary Sue subcategories from being made, of course.) So it's something to think about: how do we reorganize the subcategories? Herr Wozzeck 14:00, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm for deleting all of them, now that there are going to be fewer Sues to sort through. Well, I'd keep TOS Sues as a category, but yeah, I'd say get rid of most of the rest of them.Guvnor Of Space 15:18, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
There was a proposal for the main category to be renamed "Slain Sues and Stus," wasn't there? ~Neshomeh 19:16, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm on board with deleting the sub-categories. Maybe keep TOS-Sues and LOTR-Sues, but it's not something I feel strongly for. And I think it would be a good idea to suggest a renaming of the category, and as Neshomeh says, also include the word 'Stu' while we're at it. --EileenAlphabet 20:52, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Almost Done! These are the last thirty three that need some kind of attention[]

Third vote needed:

Bob (Stu)

Candice Speedle

Destini Star

Elena Russo

Second Vote Needed:

Narnia "Nia" Evenshire

Norman Jaden

OOP-937

Pangaea

Penny Smith

Peony

Sarah Janeway

Sean Brock

Serenity (Sue)

Shane Miller

Shitty-Ping

Silavren

Sofia Pinedale

Solaris

Special Agent Melanie Carlton (Sue)

Spidey3000

Springfield (Mary Sue)

Sue!Arwen

Sunlight Moonbeam Starsong Gale

Susan

T.C

Tala Wolcott (Sue)

Terri Baltimore

The Sisterhood

Thunder 2

Toulouse

Twila Topaz Cullen

Villa

Zain

Status?[]

It's been a while since we've last addressed the revamp of the Sue and Stu page, and last I checked, I think every Sue in the category has been decided on by the relevant parties.

Also, I think it might be a good idea to think about how we're going to add Sue/Stu pages to the PPC Wiki in the future if someone thinks that a Sue/Stu is notable enough to be featured.-Herr Wozzeck 22:13, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

  • You're right, of course. I've been mad busy with school now that it has started up again. I'm actually supposed to be writing a paper right now...

On the second count, I agree. I'm planning on putting that in the thread on the board where I post the last of these. Unless you want to post our results? --Guvnor Of Space 22:37, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

I think that since you're the one with the master list, you should probably post it on the board unless you're absolutely too busy. In that case, I would volunteer that we elect either Antigone or EileenAlphabet to post the list --Herr Wozzeck 00:08, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

  • Work is pretty slow right now, I should have time to pull together all the votes and post the list. 204.193.200.84 13:20, February 1, 2012 (UTC) -- Sorry, that's me. Wikia has been logging me out for some reason, I didn't catch it. --Antigone68104 14:07, February 1, 2012 (UTC)
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