Talk:Mary Sue

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The Mark Twain quote is cute and at some level to the point, but what is it doing at the top of the page? An encyclopedia article should start with clarifying the topic of the article. Things others have said about the topic should come somewhere below. Indemaat 12:14, 9 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Someone's been reading too many TvTropes. While it adds humor to some pages, on some articles I must admit it doesn't make sense. JulyFlame 13:58, 9 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Personally, I'm all in favour of quotes at the top of the page, just so long as they adhere to the article in discussion and are formatted better than that one was (generally means at least a couple of spaces between the quote and the start of the article, and the quote in italics). I'm undecided as to whether that one suited the article or not, but I was unaware this was a wholly serious wiki. Most of the Mary Sue page is serious, anyhow, it'd do it some good to lighten up a little. :) pigeonarmy 10:18, 10 March 2008 (NZT)
 * -thwaps- Don't be silly. We want this wiki to be lighthearted, but still tell people what is up and down and stuff. XD JulyFlame 16:35, 9 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Exactly. So what should a quote matter as long as it is properly formatted and corresponds with the article? pigeonarmy 12:56, 10 March 2008 (NZT)
 * It mostly would depend on the article, I'd have to say. Some of them do fairly well with the small quote up there, but I don't think the larger ones like this one especially need a quote. JulyFlame 18:58, 9 March 2008 (CDT)
 * Fair enough, I suppose. pigeonarmy 13:00, 10 March 2008 (NZT)
 * Say, Pigeon, have you any IM programs? Er, just reply to that on my usertalk. JulyFlame 19:03, 9 March 2008 (CDT)

I've been looking at this definition, and besides the fact that there are a couple of typos, I'm not sure we want to be using a Wikipedia paraphrase to define our arch-nemesis. The first sentence, in particular, is not specific enough. I'm suggesting a new definition, and would like to know what you think:

Mary Sue A pet character that the author loves too much to subject him or her to the rules and realities that govern the rest of a story. The more that the author damages or neglects other elements in order to exalt this "darling", the more of a Mary Sue that character is. Often emphasizing style over substance, attitude over empathy, and sex or romance above every other human relation, the Mary Sue character type is a cheap and obvious resort for a writer's wish-fulfillment.--Araeph 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions for new Mary Sue sub-concepts.
Mine is a Cyper!Sue. That is a Sue that is really a highly advanced cyborg/robot that is revealed rellativly early in a fic that purposly causes confilict between characters for her own nefarious ends, as well as a highly implausible (not to mention unrealiticly tragic as is the typical Mary Sue character.) backstory that has little to no evidence that is true. Drsdino 19:06, May 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing you meant "cyber"? I don't know about everyone else, but I've never seen or heard of a Sue like that before, and I'm guessing it's not that common. A subtype has to be, well, a type, not a single incidence. Also, if you're going to hang around, you really should at least introduce yourself on the message board. That's the best place to discuss this sort of thing, too, since you're likely to get a better response there. ~Neshomeh 01:59, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your right... it's more or less a parody of Camoren Philips from The Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. I wrote a fanfic were I purposly introduced one for the sake of satire/parody. You know the one I was talking with you about on my talk page? Well I just wrote a sequel to it. P.S. I know there's a disclaimer saying that she isn't but that's just a minor and not-so-subtle spoiler. Also my account name on the message board|message board is Darth Sith'ari as is my penname on fanfiction.net. Drsdino 03:51, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

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Canon-language terms and Sue image.
First, may I ask why my request to bring up changes to the content here first is being ignored? I didn't think it was that much to ask. If you disagree, please tell me why instead of just ignoring my wishes.

On to the actual changes: I question whether Sindarin/Quenya terms for "Mary Sue" are so widely used by or integral to the PPC that they need to be included here. I flatly object to just jamming them in with the standard, directly derived terms; if anything, I think they belong in a sub-section about canon-language or alternative terms, or in the "Mary Sue and the PPC" section, which deals with in-universe stuff.

Here is the content in question, which I've taken off the main page for the time being:

The Quenya term "Mól-Cáralawen" and the Sindarin "Mûl-Ceredirwen" are both interpreted to mean Mary-Sue. The literal meaning of both terms is "Thrall-making girl."

hS, IMO, "no reference exists yet" means "should not be added yet." Also, "Mary Sue" isn't hyphenated anywhere else on this page (because it isn't hyphenated in "A Trekkie's Tale" where the term was coined). Consistency plzkthx.

Another Sindarin version is "Bainthoreth" or "Vainthoreth" for a Mary-Sue, and "Bainthoron" or "Vainthoron" for a Gary-Stu. The literal meanings of these words are "Foul-beauty" (feminine) and "Foul-handsome one" (masculine). Agent Eledhwen Elerossiel has been heard to use the term "Bainthoreth" during a mission.

Apart from Eledhwen's (just one?) use, these terms come from an external site, not us. This article is about our usage, not the Internet at large. Also, again with the hyphens.

(I did keep the addition of the term "anti-Sue," since I think it's relevant and fits with the rest of that section. Anon's other changes have been removed, since they are completely redundant once you know what the PPC is.)

Finally, this image >

I disagree that it's representative of a typical Sue, for one thing, and I don't want to give the impression that we consider any blue-eyed blonde in a pink dress to be a Sue, for another. If images are wanted, perhaps a gallery or somesuch is the way to go? Or maybe one of those "anatomy of a Sue" drawings, if anyone has one lying around? It would have to fit with the definition we're using here, though, which is not focused on specific physical traits or abilities.

Your thoughts, please.

~Neshomeh 18:08, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd say all of that seems reasonable. As to bringing up changes to the content before making them, I didn't know, and I apologize; I just saw that Elvish terms were being added, and wanted to add the ones that were both more familiar to me and that I had seen used. (I do think Eledhwen has used the term more than once, it's just that that mission was still fresh in my mind.) Sorry about any offence/confusion/annoyance my changes caused.


 * One thing, though, Neshomeh&mdash;how did you do the formatting for the pieces you took out of the article? I'm very curious, and it doesn't show up in the html from what I can see.


 * DawnFire (talk) 18:29, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, now I'm glad I didn't add the My Little Pony Sue name that World-Jumper created ("Glitter Do"). I do think such terms should be listed, but moved to another section. I also agree about the picture, because it reinforces the "beautiful characters are always Mary Sues" viewpoint, when the PPC is very clear that the beauty is the symptom, not the disease.


 * ~ Hermione of vulcan (talk) 21:58, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * As flattered as I am to see Eledhwen mentioned on the page, I agree that it'd be cool to have a compilation of canon terms for Mary Sues in a subpage or something linking back to this one. We could add other languages too - I'm sure someone out there knows what Mary Sue translates to in Klingon or something.
 * Yes, I also think there should be a gallery of Sues? I could draw an anatomy of a Sue thing if you really want me to, but we could just use Ensign Sue in place of the above picture or something (and credit the creator) since she's well-known and stuff. We could also add the Sue from that Sparklipoo parody in the gallery; she's an example of someone who looks ordinary - until you see those colour-changing eyes.


 * Considering plenty of people on the Pit know to avoid the stereotypical signs of a Sue, I don't think any blatant rainbow-haired or cat-eared girls are suitable for the gallery. Instead, I suggest we go Circle-diving - the illustrations for Sues from the Circle of Lemmings (and illustrations for Sues on FFN if available - Alexis Gilmore, for example, is supposed to look like Alexis Bledel or something) that have been missioned could be put into the Gallery. Personally, I don't want the PPC to go out of its way to create illustrations for the Sues, because chances are our own biases will cloud the portrayal. Instead, we just have the Sue-illustrator show his/her intentions in the depictions of the Sues.
 * Lily Winterwood (talk) 05:38, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * may I ask why my request to bring up changes to the content here first is being ignored? The reason is that, if you don't deliberately switch over to source mode, the note you left looks like this:
 * Picture . That tiny 10x10 image in the corner is the only hint that there's something there - quite simply, I didn't even notice it.
 * As to 'no source', the term comes from the mission I'm in the middle of writing. So it would be more accurate to say the source isn't quite published yet. In fact I'll probably change the Sindarin form to match the one Lily has used, for consistency - but as you can tell, I made the note to the page before that was added.
 * I disagree in general that 'not in a story = shouldn't be on the wiki' - and even more that 'only mentioned once = shouldn't be on the wiki', which I've seen a few times. How many times was the Wisteria named before I used it in Crashing Down? Once - when Nenya and Rosie joined. How many times has the Toffee Tree been mentioned in stories? I know Fix-It is still on the wiki - and what about that massive list of bleeprin derivatives? I'd be amazed if there were multiple sources for all of them.
 * It would have to fit with the definition we're using here, though, which is not focused on specific physical traits or abilities.
 * I agree that this is an excellent goal, but... I'm not sure it's realised. We open with a quote about appearance, for example. I think that, to meet that goal, the following changes should be attempted:
 * Emphasise more that point at the top of 'Secondary Traits'. They are neither required for a Mary Sue (I do hate spelling it without the hyphen, you know), or only present in them - they're just commonly associated with them, and so serve as warnings. As it stands, we pay lip service to this idea, then go on to describe why anyone with them is a 'Sue.
 * A new primary trait: a Mary Sue is a badly-written character. As defined by the PPC, I think this is and has to be true. Yes, it is possible to write an entertaining, non-parody, canon-warping OC - but in that  case, she is no longer a Mary Sue. I feel very strongly that this ought to be the first and defining primary characteristic.
 * A one-to-two sentence definition of Mary Sue, as understood by the PPC. As it stands, the article is the definition - which is all well and good, but not very friendly if we get into another argument and want to say 'No, this is what we mean'. I propose the following for dissection and editing:
 * A Mary Sue is a badly-written character who warps the canon world and characters around them, significantly altering them without explanation to serve the Mary Sue's story needs.
 * The above excludes all mention of appearance (which is good), but does lose the point about 'not reacting realistically'. Perhaps this might serve better:
 * A Mary Sue is a badly-written character whose reactions are inappropriate for the events taking place around them, and whose interactions with the canonical world and characters exist for the sole purpose of telling the Mary Sue's story, regardless of how out-of-character that drives the canons'
 * This one gets rid of that vague term 'warping'; I'll leave it at that for discussion.
 * I also have issue with the final primary trait (special just because she exists). While that part is true, it then goes on to describe uniformly positive examples - which gives the impression that 'all the elves hate her because she has magickckck powers!' isn't a Mary Sue.
 * Oh, and I agree about the image. If a Mary Sue isn't about appearance, then either have no image, or have one which describes her in terms of what actually makes a 'Sue. Huinesoron (talk) 07:11, May 21, 2013 (UTC)