Talk:Killed Badfic

Hey, I think it's great that someone took it upon him/herself to make the Killed Badfic list a little bit more organised. What I didn't think was so great was that all the names of badfic authors had been removed. Now, I may have been the only one that actually added the name of the badfic author next to the link to their fic, but where I'm from (academics) you're supposed to quote source with author. I understand about the desire to go for uniformity in a list, but that doesn't mean that the easiest route (no authors get mentioned with the link to their story) has to be taken.

Yes, one could argue that by clicking the link one would find out the author's name, and yes they may have changed their name in the mean time. Both are irrelevant. The first one particularly for badfic that has been removed from the internet. We credit the authors of PPC mission so we too should "credit" the authors of badfic.IndeMaat

You mentioned the big points (that most of the entries here do not list their authors and uniformity in a list is preferable). The website already treads a very dangerous line between "light hearted parody" and "trollish bashing". Already, the concept of the PPC would be loathsome if it weren't for the fact that the whole thing is meant to be light-hearted parody as opposed to harsh satire. Involving the authors themselves is crossing that line, however.

Authors should just be given the benefit of the doubt. The fact is, most badfic doesn't come from unrepentant jerks like David Gonterman or blatantly obvious parody personas such as Squirrelking, but just normal people whose only crimes are lacking perspective and experience. By crediting the authors by name on this website (in a section that is inherently negative, regardless of any claims otherwise), it's basically just setting them up as crappy authors to be shunned forever. Also, if they choose to delete their story, it's most likely because they want to spare people from their crappy story and they are perfectly in their right to do so. Keeping their name next to the blank link? "Hey, you can't escape a bad reputation!"

Honestly... this website is supposed to just be about the bad stories themselves, right? Not author bashing? Best way to not lose that perspective is to just leave the authors themselves out of it if they aren't either specifically jerks, trolls, or otherwise intentional sources of badfic.EtherealMutation 20:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The other thing is, you seem not to have realised that insulting the PPC is a really, really stupid thing to do on /our own wiki/. You say we tread a very dangerous line between "light hearted parody" and "trollish bashing" -- how is that statement anything but "trollish bashing" itself? If you aren't interested in the mission of the PPC, you have no real reason to be here, and if you are interested, you should avoid referring to it as "loathsome". Make your mind up. hS 21:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * EM, you seem to have misunderstood a couple of things. First, yes, the PPC (which is not simply "this website") is about the bad stories. We emphatically /avoid/ author bashing. However, linking to or naming stories without listing their authors (if known) is a bad thing. It is refusing to cite your sources. In academic circles, that will get you severely punished. We're not a university here, but you know, it's also basic politeness.


 * Dude. Okay. It seems you have a problem with how we operate. We have never 'bashed' an author. That would be contrary to the point, which is to criticse the writing, as you say. We often go to badfic authors and offer concrit. And several have actually taken it and become better authors. We can't do that if we don't know who the author is, for a start. And I'm sorry, but the tone of the above suggests that you're on the defensive, which when I recall the palaver over your stories making it onto the Unclaimed Badfic list isn't surprising. And also, it's rude. Really rude. We *know* most badficcers aren't bad evil people. Some of us used to *be* them. You have just called us 'loathsome', 'trollish' etc. This is offensive. If you don't like how we work, and it seems you don't, then leave. IndeMaat's right; they wrote their stories and put them on the internet. This means they were at least proud of them when they did it. And if we don't credit the author, it could be construed as plagiarism. It is only common courtesy to credit an author, and we try to be courteous. Trojie 21:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The important thing to keep in mind is that people misinterpret stuff all the time and are also skewed towards the negative. When somebody sees "Story by Soandso", the first thought that will come to mind is "Soandso is a bad author", not "this particular story by Soandso is bad". One can write as many FAQs, disclaimers, etc. as one wants, but the simple fact is that it's a wasted effort on most people and what they are going to see is that a page called "Killed Badfic" is featuring the works of Soandso. That's where it becomes rather gratuitous and unnecessary.

And yes, I did, in fact, call the concept ->potentially<- loathsome. These aren't reviews or constructive breakdowns being written here (as least not the PPC canon stories, anyway). These are stories that take other people's creations out of their original context and "kill" them for the "crimes" of being "bad fiction". The major point that comes across from the PPC stories is "your story is bad and you should feel bad". This would be bashing if it weren't for the dividing line that this is just meant as light-hearted parody, but this line is very thin and easy to cross over (not to mention a bit of a slippery slope - it's not like 4chan specifically started out the way it currently is). One way to cross over the line: mention the authors without context. Please don't take this as me bashing the website, but instead as an attempt to point out the dangerous territory it walks on and offer a way to prevent it from eventually becoming just another exercise of schadenfreude.

Anyway, regardless, there's no reason to keep the names on this page. It's pointless information if they choose to keep their story up with their names attached to it (all one has to do is click the link) and if they choose to delete it (which is perfectly within their right to do so; they're entirely free of charge to begin with, so they're not robbing you of anything to stop offering it), it becomes a form of author bashing to leave their credit up. A blank link is a completely out of context reference and all one has to go by is whatever gets copied into the PPC story (which will never be anything good and certainly not given a neutral point of view, either) and the assurance that what used to be there was bad, bad, BAD. That makes it a disservice to the authors.

Also, fanfiction in general is such a nebulous grey area in legality that worrying about "plagiarism" is rather pointless (not to mention that the nature of the PPC stories sort of precludes "plagiarism" of the stories being drawn from in the first place... unless there really are people trying to steal credit to the stories they're condemning). If anything, it's really more just luck and the fact that most professional websites will abide by the requests of publishers to take down stories unconditionally that prevents a high profile case from resulting in a ruling about its legality (which, most likely, would not choose to favor the side of fanfiction because it's a several billion dollar industry versus a rather small subsection of amateur writers). But that's irrelevant.EtherealMutation 23:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and another flaw to the "academic citation of sources" angle: MLA style dictates that you have to give not just the original author, but a clear reference to the source of the work in question (can't just write "Newspaper Article by Soandso". You have to also include the newspaper date, issue, and page that it appears on in a clear, direct way). Obviously, if they decide to delete the story, what are you referencing to with that blank link? Nothing. Just whatever was copied into the PPC story (which may or may not be an actual excerpt).EtherealMutation 23:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No, in fact, it is not "pointless information". You may have noticed that this is a Wiki. It is a reference guide. That means it is there to collect the information in one place. If we are saying that information need not be included if you can find it at the other end of a link, why do we have any pages? Agent bios contain information given in their missions. Would they be classed as "pointless information"? No. And neither is naming the authors of the stories PPC'd. And, incidentally, your statement that the excerpts in PPC missions "may or may not be an actual excerpt" is insulting and thoroughly unnecessary. You may wish to reconsider your apparent decision to associate with the PPC. hS 23:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * EtherealMutation, a quick question: why in the name of Eru, Aslan and Mithros are you here? You don't seem to really like what we do, you object to the way we run our wiki, and despite the fact that you've expressed interest in writing a mission, you've ignored polite suggestions that you follow standard procedure and ask permission to write in the PPC canon. Trojie 01:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't bypass anything. Have I published anything yet?  No.  I asked on the forums for the procedure for writing for it (since the page "Permission" is tucked away in a little corner... actually, what this website could use is a "So you want to write for the PPC?" FAQ with a link on the front page that explains everything).  Anyway, the rest of your question is explained below (your question was edited in just as I was about to post this).

Every encyclopedic reference (even the original Wikipedia... especially the original Wikipedia) has limits. For example, a film entry on the regular Wikipedia won't have a full list of credits. They'll usually have the actors, directors, producers, and writers (maybe references to other personnel if it won an academy award in some field), but not a full list. Why don't they include it if their aim is to provide as much information as possible.? If you ask Wikipedia, they'll tell you that it's because each film page references the Internet Movie Database. Wikipedia aims to offer an informative summary with lists of references for further research, not to be the end all, be all source of all information. A starting point for the vital information so one can have at least an entry level knowledge of the topic in question.

But to be more direct in terms of this website: if one wants to include the author's name, why not also include their publication date, last update date, and chapter and word counts? Along with that, one should also include their full review pages (both positive and negative, as opposed to the "selected reviews" I've seen on some pages)? Hell, let's copy the full text, reformat it for this website, and not bother with any links period. Of course, the problem with that is that it holds its own messy ethical implications (placing somebody else's text on a webpage that anybody can edit and thus alter to fit whatever usage while bypassing their control of its distribution... yeah...), but if it's necessary to be entirely self-sufficient, so be it. Probably also include a full script for every one of the fictional canons represented on this page... actually, this website needs a full dictionary as well. Need to gather as much information as possible. More pages, more lists, more stuff!

But anyway, to offer a more direct question to be answered: This website primarily concerns itself with the PPC and its canon, right? Does the PPC directly involve itself with any of these authors? Usually not in any way that is vital to the purpose of the website. Honestly... what does listing, say, "Princess Moony" (author of... oh, wait, nothing that can be directly referenced and thus might have never existed) do for the website in terms of informing people about the PPC? Does "Princess Moony" make an appearance in the story? Hold a place in the PPC canon? Doesn't seem like it. Thus, it doesn't fit and its only real purpose seems to be to say "this person wrote a story in the past and we're not letting it go". The necessary information is the story that is being used by the PPC for the spinoff, with a link to its original context for further research (if available). That's where the story relevancy to the PPC begins and ends. If somebody wants to research it further from there, the option is available, but to offer irrelevant information in an inherently negative context like that adds nothing doesn't do anything for the PPC itself.

As for the "insulting and thoroughly unnecessary" comment... I'm not the one that brought up the academic standpoint. The whole reason behind the MLA is to give clear, exact references to the locations of such publications in their original context specifically because of the possibility of plagiarism or modifying the text to fit the purposes of whatever point is being made (which can, in fact, include just copying sections of it in a different context). If one were to hand in a paper to a professor that listed a reference to something that no longer exists ("take my word for it, there used to be a website that gave me this frequency chart used in the Vietnam war, but it got deleted"), it would result in a grade reduction (provided the professor is lenient enough not to just fail the paper for potential plagiarism and/or misleading use/origin of the text). There's no such thing as either infallibility or a universal honor system that prevents the misuse of other people's works.

Also, to be fairly direct, I don't like this whole "make it personal" angle that is being taken towards me. I'm trying to help the website through objective observations here. Why else would I spend two cumulative hours pruning the incredibly messy lists (which included having to gather quite a bit of information and even fix two of the links... sure is fun doing searches in >300,000 entry categories) if not to help? It's not like I'm getting paid to be here. Thus, so, too, do I mention objective observations about potentially negative interpretations and reactions to the website. I like the website enough to not want it to devolve into yet another unfriendly, blindly satirical website (which I am not saying it already is... just that this is a possible path it could take if enough small changes in a particular direction happen and something that needs to be guarded against).

It's sort of ironic that a website that has a secondary goal of helping writers to improve through constructive criticism is acting like it's completely immune to, well, constructive criticism. There's no such thing as infallibility and there's no such thing as perfection, something that the website implies through its very extensive FAQ but needs to practice. Or, at the very least, offer an objective, complete refutation of the points being made instead of questioning my integrity, choosing particular interpretations of my statements to make labored points, and demanding I leave. Let's be mature here. EtherealMutation 02:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * EM, the issue as I see it is nothing to do with your ideas in and of themselves. Please understand that you haven't been around very long and that you arrived at a bad time, what with the major spam episode on the Board. Frankly, I think we're all feeling less than comfortable with someone we don't know well coming in and making sweeping changes without consulting the rest of us. I don't personally doubt that you mean well, or that your ideas have merit, but it's unreasonable to think that you can simply appear in our midst, flags waving and trumpets blaring, and expect us all to fall in behind you. It doesn't work that way. We would all feel a lot better if you'd just be patient with your ideas and go through the process of integrating with us, like everyone else. Neshomeh 04:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

EM, a lot of your points have merit, and I'm sure we all appreciate that you were only trying to help, but if the PPC was going to start on this "slippery downward slope", I am quite of the opinion that it would have already done so. It has been going for over five years now, and generally in that amount of time there would have already been a substantial downwards turn if there was going to be. Part of our aims are to help each other become better writers, and we do take pains to make sure we aren't unfair to anyone. Why else would we put disclaimers in our missions, stating very clearly that the fics we spork are emphatically not our property, but the property of the person who actually wrote them?

Are you suggesting that anyone who wrote a PPC mission around a story that has been taken down should remove all such missions, just in case people think it is their own work? The very fact that we include links to the story would suggest that we are offering people a chance to take a look at the full text of it, which in turn would suggest that we don't own the story if we need to send people elsewhere to look at it.

And what about the PPCers who have sporked their own work? What do they do when they retire?

I apologise for throwing so many questions at you, but Neshomeh, hS and Trojie have quite carefully laid out the situation, and you don't seem to want to listen to what they have to say. All they've been doing is pointing out PPC policy, and they've all been here for years now, so they do know what they're talking about. Not to mention their very calm and reasonable debate, politely answering your questions. And, I have to admit, they're right. You do seem to be expecting everyone to follow your way of thinking, but the point is that we don't have any leaders. The PPC is a community without any official leadership- anyone can suggest an idea, but it has to be approved by enough people if we're going to carry it out, and your points just don't seem to be attracting much approval.--Cassie5squared 07:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)